Are all Indians fans delusional?

[Bye!]

They don't have to give up a draft pick for Bell. He was offered arbitration, but then released after he accepted it. That makes him a unconditional free-agent.

You ask why anybody would want him, I say his stats are similar to Guttierez, but his position is 2B, and he has a little more power. Add to that, the fact that he would have come much cheaper (half the cost) as Rickey and it's a no-brainer.

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[NYC JewBoy]

I have just scanned the postings, and once again I am amazed. I have some quick points:

1. The point of a baseball season is to attempt to win a World Series, not settle for a 88 win division title.

2. The Indians have, in aggregate, hurt themselves this year, the entire outfield & 2b position have been downgraded significantly. They will be worse, and are farther away from a WS than previous seasons.

3. Indians management will continue to cut costs as long as 2M + tix are sold before opening day. They have no incentive to improve, and will continue to snow fans with the illusion that div. titles + WS titles.



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[Bye!]

I assume that since you have scanned the posts, that you also are aware of what Shapiro has said was their plan, since he became the GM.

That was to stay competitive while getting younger. No winning 85 to 88 games isn't their final goal - it's to win the WS. However, even you have to see that this team is old. If they wait any longer, then a true rebuilding will have to be done. That means dismantling the team and having to go through 2 or 3 losing seasons.

By doing it the way they are trying to do it, they will be competitive, and they are getting younger. Whether these moves will pan out in 2 or 3 years remains to be seen.

I do believe this team will battle for the division. Despite what you believe, anybody that gets that far has a chance, remember the Marlins. Do I believe they will win the WS next year? No!

The only teams who's payrolls are expected to go up significantly this year, are the Yankees and the Red Sox. The Red Sox moves however, will be in vain.

Most of the other teams are trying to cut payroll, and I applaud them for doing it. Even the Mets are keeping their payroll at where it was at last year, that's why they have decided not to sign Juan. They say they can only afford 1.5 million more on their payroll for this year.

Too bad Steinbrenner has no conscience and no concern about where major league baseball is headed. He's already proven he is a deceptive , lying scumbag who's been running his team unethically. But what the hell, the league won't challenge him, so why not?

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[NYC JewBoy]

1. First of all, Alomar & Gonzalez are not old ball players, they are in their prime production years, the Indians did not want to pay for that performance. Same as Manny Ramirez.

2. They may be younger, but that does not mean these "prospects", especially those the Mets dumped on the Indians will ever reach the majors, let alone become All-Star caliber. The chances are they won't, and the Indians will be in free fall fairly shortly. The currenst prospects do not measure up to Giles, Sexson, Branyan, and other good cheap players the Tribe parted with.

3. G. Steinbrenner is purely about winning, something Dolan & crew have no interest in. They refuse to go the distance to bring WS to Cleveland. They are making strictly $$$$ decisions, exchanging great plyers for garbage prospects.

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[supersleuth]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYC JewBoy:
1. First of all, Alomar & Gonzalez are not old ball players, they are in their prime production years

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, no. Prime production years, as anybody really familiar with baseball stats should know, are 25-29. These players are, to use the words of the ESPN "Hot Stove Heaters" report, "on the wrong side of the age curve". Just to show that I'm not simply defending everything Shapiro has done, that's also the reason why giving long-term deals to Lawton and Gutierrez may turn out to be a mistake.


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[NYC JewBoy]

I suppose R. Johnson, R. Clemons, Schilling, Bernie Williams, Tino Martinez, Luis Gonzalez are all on the wrong side of the age curve. These are all major contributors to the WS champion D'Backs, and runner-up Yankees. Johnson & Clemons won the Cy Young this year.

I also suppose Barry Bonds is too old after having one of the greatest offensive season in the history of the game at 38.


Alomar & Gonzalez will continue to be top tier offensive & defensive playerf for a long time, and will probably play on a WS NY Mets team in the next two years. The Indians simply gave them away.

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[Bye!]

To NYC Jewboy:

34 years old is near the tailend of most careers, and especially for middle infielders. Juan, is a great player who just happens to be a bit of a prima donna. He sits out nursing minor aches and pains, he played in 142 games last year and does have a chronic back problem. That's one of the reasons Shapiro decided not to go after him.

Do you have any thoughts on why Juan can't find some team to pay him what he should get, based on the season he had? Personally, I would have liked to have seen them sign him, but I do understand what they are attempting to do.

The thing that you seem to have missed, is that the trade didn't save them a penny. They signed Lawton for about the same money per year that Alomar was getting. So tell me where that was a cost cutting move.

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[supersleuth]

You don't know much about statistics, do you? Individual exceptions don't disprove general rules. Pick a representative group of players over 30, and if you're a betting man you're pretty certain to lose money if you bet that their aggregate production will be better next year than last.

Now, will Alomar continue to be a very good player for a few more years? I expect that he will. But the fact remains that, contrary to the nonsense about "peak production years" that you posted, he is past his prime and has a limited number of productive years left. Given that, plus the fact that he's a free agent after next year and is sure to demand a big raise, his market value simply was not as great as some of you have been fantasizing. Talk about "delusional"...

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[NYC JewBoy]

1. Alomar & Gonzalez are not most players, the are HOF & All-Star caliber, like the afore mentioned D'backs & Yankees.
2. Suppose this does not save $$$$, then it is worse than fist imagined. The Indians are going for charcater over talent, a sin and a mistake. The best team the Indians had was '95, a team full of "bad seeds" like Belle, Murray, Martinez, Baerga. The were tougher, more talented, and won more than any character team I have ever seen. Again, the league is full of fundamental players and teams that win nothing, go nowhere, but are "good in the community". Garbage! The Indians are supposed to win games, if they want to like each other, feel good, and avoid controversy at the expense of striving to win games, take the summer off and go camping and golfing together. Get me some ballplayers that want to win.



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[Bye!]

I don't disagree about the good citizen bull, but you still haven't addressed the issue. They need to get young. Last year the forum was all about how old this team was. Most everybody said this team was headed for trouble because of the age of the players. Omar, Robbie, Juan, and Kenny were specifically pointed out.

Now that Shapiro is trying to do something about it, he's being ripped apart. Apparently, we really don't know what we want. Do we want a younger aggressive team that will get better, or do we want a bunch of aging veterans that will win the division and go no farther?

I've said numerous times that I thought Shapiro could have gotten more than he did for Robbie, but I also was on record before this deal that if they could get some top prospects, then they should deal Robbie.

What will you say if guys like Bradley, Escobar and Traber realize their potential? How nice would it be if Bradley hit 280+, stole 30+ bases and gave us great defense in CF? How good would it be to see Escobar hit 30+ homers, bat 280+ and steal 25+ bases? I don't know if they will, but the potential is there for them to do just that, and maybe more.

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